The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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Mcll
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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The way I see it. Whether or not we like it, the movement has been branded as witch-house and attempting to rebrand it is just shooting ourselves in the foot. If you "friends", think it is a joke and they don't understand it. Tell em WH don't care whether or not you agree or understand. It happened and it keeps evolving and it is exciting. That is all that matters.
Neurotic
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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I agree, it's not all that bad a name as movement/genre names goes. Especially in electronic music - I mean, we've got future garage (piss poor name) and IDM (intelligent dance music - elitist, misguided) among others. People who say "Well there's no house elements in witch house" are missing the point, as this is a genre bound mainly only by an aesthetic so actually you could make some music with the conventions of some house subgenre through this lens. In a way, if you want to go deeper, witch house is one of the first real 21st century genres, in that the roots of the genre are whatever the artist was inspired by. There are a few common themes like the more sonically interesting R&B productions, chopped and screwed hip hop, synth pop and the first couple of waves of industrial music but that's about it. I think this is what some people are having a problem dealing with - a lot don't tend to like it when things get too eclectic.
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twinvessel
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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halcyon_silence wrote:It's funny how witchhouse is supposedly "dead", yet arguably the 2 biggest WH artists with the most mainstream appeal (Holy Other + oOoOO) haven't even released their LPs yet..

whether or not it will still be called "witch house" a year from now is debatable (already most big artists have distanced themselves from that label) but this new dark/ambient/dreamy electronic sound is just getting started IMO..
I couldn't agree more. I think for people that got "in" on the whole thing(regardless what people called it) a couple years ago
it's 'dead' in that it's no longer fresh to them. Again, I still like the droney trap beats like everyone else here(tho to me Salem still did it the best) but my goodness...the explosion into r and b, chillwave, even Arabic or old school industrial sounds has just been staggering. It may be "dead" in the sense that the original slow-chop/trap beat/alice glass vocal style has been played within the microscene, and we're seeing a flourishing of so many other styles. I really wish more people could discover AARC or Gazelle Twin, or any of newer acts exploring way outside the "2010" style.

But yeah, it's possible a lot of the key sounds/aesthetics/iconography/etc will go completely mainstream soon
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twinvessel
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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cutups wrote:Good job on the initial post here, a lot of good thoughts.

Without over thinking it, i'm just glad we're in a place where people can connect the dots between
a number of different darker artists/styles, and enjoy them across the board. That this can
exist as its own thing w/o *having* to be a riff on the g/i scene (which you accurately note has really been the ebm cybergoth scene for 10+ years) is a nice side effect.

While the name witch house is a bit more jokey than many others, I think any movement that coalesces around
a name benefits from it...until it becomes hindered by it. Its kind of inevitable. Luckily, in the internet age, we're not really limited by these names and keywords as much as we were in the past. I'm not sure that there's a better name for the pan-dark-electronic "scene" these days, but i'm not really bothered by that either.

Yeah it's possible had the "wh" joke not been picked up, there may have not have been the sort of greater exposure or inspiration. Every few years I see certain themes/sounds in bands unrelated to eachother pop up(like the ubiquitous jangly folky indie rock bands with animal names) that the media latches onto. So you would have seen Salem and Creep doing the rap beat influenced dark female pop, or stuff like oOoOO and Balam doing their thing...but it might not have swirled around into something people could put a finger on. However I strongly feel that certain bands from yesteryear would be labeled 'witch house'(even stuff like crystal castles) if it had just been released in today's climate. An act like Balam Acab would have simply been noted as trip hop in the late 90's. But if legendary act Coil or Swans came out today, they'd be swept into the 'wh' tag.

In my own personal experience, I've found that while general younger indie fans like wh, it's more or less the older goth/industrial fans(who prefer death in june, puppy, coil and bauhaus over combichrist or vnv nation) who seem to really take to wh type bands. Normally bands with a dark sound/aesthetic immediately appeal to that young rebelious side, but were living in such a Katy Perry/LMFAO autotune dance rock anthem world now(or "safe" pop) that sadly the modern EBM/industrial scene reflects this and thus unwilling to try out more 'difficult' music with difficult themes.

A lot of "WH" also seems to be a lot more intelligent and artsy than the usual EBM/cybergoth/modern goth act, and not immediately suited to the four on the floor club mindset. And while it's true that the post internet modern music consumer isnt into paying for music(thus one should always see their band as more of a hobby first), wh seems to be one of the ONLY genres in the 'indie' umbrella that can get away with selling cdrs and cassette tapes. Vinyl seems to be favored, and I swear I see MORE vinyl releases than cds at indie record shops when it comes to overall new releases.
WH related shows almost always sell out, least here in san francisco area
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twinvessel
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Neurotic wrote:I agree, it's not all that bad a name as movement/genre names goes. Especially in electronic music - I mean, we've got future garage (piss poor name) and IDM (intelligent dance music - elitist, misguided) among others. People who say "Well there's no house elements in witch house" are missing the point, as this is a genre bound mainly only by an aesthetic so actually you could make some music with the conventions of some house subgenre through this lens. In a way, if you want to go deeper, witch house is one of the first real 21st century genres, in that the roots of the genre are whatever the artist was inspired by. There are a few common themes like the more sonically interesting R&B productions, chopped and screwed hip hop, synth pop and the first couple of waves of industrial music but that's about it. I think this is what some people are having a problem dealing with - a lot don't tend to like it when things get too eclectic.
This is a rather inspired, poignant take. Especially the "witch house is one of the first real 21st century genres, in that the roots of the genre are whatever the artist was inspired by" comment. Claire from Grimes made the comment of "post internet", and to me wh is the first real broad movement of the internet meme age that moved past a niche area. A number of mainstream articles have already talked about the darker direction bands are taking(without specifically mentioning wh) as a direct reaction to the overly sterile and bland pop of today. Be it Bon Iver, Katy Perry, etc. The days of Marilyn Manson, NIN, etc having this strong influence in the mainstream is long gone.

I have some friends, they hear the name "witch house", hear rap beats, and immediately are offput.
But I really see no similarities in the least between *that* witch house(Salem, Crim3s, etc) and say...Aarc, AIMON,
Gazelle Twin, Holy Other, etc. I mean oOoOO has a song called "No Shore" which straight up sounds like Death in June neofolk, but then has some soothing pop, peppered by cryptic dance tracks. Tearist to me sounds like experimental no wave pop of the early 80's. AIMON reminds me of when I discovered GGFH, Skinny Puppy, Yelworc and Wumpscut back in the mid 1990's. Just the overall newer indie dance genre of unsigned/micro label 'bedroom bands' excites me. Pogo, Computer Magic, Grimes, etc. The idea someone with no musical background, no label, etc can make something exciting all by themselves and have it be seen. Balam Acab, Computer Magic, Grimes, etc I believe are all 20-21 I think.

I hear so much about all these(in my view, utterly retarded sounding) sub-sub dance genres in the electronic dance community. And yeah, hats off to them...but it's so soulless. Yeah a lot of wh borders on just straight up pop, and often isnt really dark...but I almost always find it intelligent. Not that music should never be tongue and cheek, or plain cheeky. The evoking of a dreamy, hazy memory is another strong current I see in wh, and its cousin: chillwave
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ambiolakish
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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I think the genre name is dismissed as a parody of the reprocessing of genres, but the music that the name encompasses is being increasingly embraced by the mainstream.
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I think the biggest issue is the whole “goth” scene that dominates the alternative clubs. In my opinion, a lot of people who identify with the whole goth scene are really set in to the whole “THIS IS GOTH AND THIS IS WHAT IS NOT” thing. I mean, have you ever spent time around a group of Goths? They love debating the nature gothiness ad nauseum. What bands are considered Goth. What outfits are consider goth. What beer is gothiest. (Who cares? Wasn’t the whole scene originally about not being labeled?) However when anything new arives it automatically becomes some kind of social taboo. I remember when the whole cyber Goth thing was new and they were all up in arms about people wearing neon colors and listening to EBM. The irony is that is the kind of stuff that these alternative clubs love now. So here we are as this emerging new genre of music (and I do think we are still growing) with people who have a dark aesthetic taste both in the music and the visuals that accompany it. Some call it Witch house, or triangle core, drag, rape-gaze, whatever. We understand that names and labels are kind of a joke, I mean why else are most of the band names alt- keyboard functions? It doesn’t matter what it’s called I know what I like when I hear it. It’s got that wonderful dark, ambient sound, but the beats are still fresh and danceable, and the musicians put an immense amount of thought into their creations. You’d think it would be the perfect type of music for the alternative club scene. I would much rather go to a club and dance to White Ring’s IxC999 than whatever Cruxshadow’s shit they play. However these alternative clubs do not want to try out anything progressive. Its more profitable to do another steampunk night not only because playing GVCCHI HVCCHI in the venue might cause a heart attack, but what the Witch House genre also represents; something that can not be easily classified. That mentality of “Goth is this and this and this” does not jive with our freedom to draw influence from everywhere.
So this genre and its fans don’t get a lot of respect because it is still new and since we don’t have a clear defined set of rules, but I think the longer it sticks around and the more people the music reaches, the more Witch House is going to become a name that people recognize.
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twinvessel
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ghettoazzwitch wrote:I think the biggest issue is the whole “goth” scene that dominates the alternative clubs. In my opinion, a lot of people who identify with the whole goth scene are really set in to the whole “THIS IS GOTH AND THIS IS WHAT IS NOT” thing. I mean, have you ever spent time around a group of Goths? They love debating the nature gothiness ad nauseum. What bands are considered Goth. What outfits are consider goth. What beer is gothiest. (Who cares? Wasn’t the whole scene originally about not being labeled?) However when anything new arives it automatically becomes some kind of social taboo. I remember when the whole cyber Goth thing was new and they were all up in arms about people wearing neon colors and listening to EBM. The irony is that is the kind of stuff that these alternative clubs love now. So here we are as this emerging new genre of music (and I do think we are still growing) with people who have a dark aesthetic taste both in the music and the visuals that accompany it. Some call it Witch house, or triangle core, drag, rape-gaze, whatever. We understand that names and labels are kind of a joke, I mean why else are most of the band names alt- keyboard functions? It doesn’t matter what it’s called I know what I like when I hear it. It’s got that wonderful dark, ambient sound, but the beats are still fresh and danceable, and the musicians put an immense amount of thought into their creations. You’d think it would be the perfect type of music for the alternative club scene. I would much rather go to a club and dance to White Ring’s IxC999 than whatever Cruxshadow’s shit they play. However these alternative clubs do not want to try out anything progressive. Its more profitable to do another steampunk night not only because playing GVCCHI HVCCHI in the venue might cause a heart attack, but what the Witch House genre also represents; something that can not be easily classified. That mentality of “Goth is this and this and this” does not jive with our freedom to draw influence from everywhere.
So this genre and its fans don’t get a lot of respect because it is still new and since we don’t have a clear defined set of rules, but I think the longer it sticks around and the more people the music reaches, the more Witch House is going to become a name that people recognize.
Haha, reading this Im like "did I get drunk and create a second account and forgot about it"

When I first got into the goth/industrial subculture and music almost 20 years ago, the musical palette was EXTREMELY
diverse. Coil, Dead Can Dance, Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Nitzer Ebb, Switchblade Symphony, Klinik, Cocteau Twins, Christian Death, Joy Division, Swans, Death In June, Depeche Mode, GGFH, Front 242, Front Line Assembly, Siouxsie and the Banshees, KMFDM, Einsterzunde Neubauten, Xymox, the Sisters of Mercy, Nine Inch Nails, X Marks The Pedwalk, X Mal Duetchland, and on and on. So many bands, so many styles.

In 2012, when you go to a goth club(and it's not specifically geriatric dinosaur night where it's all 45 year olds pretending it's 1989) it's almost exclusively going to be this shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkOF0t0lpdA
With this style
Image

There's many debates what "goth" is. When Manson got popular, "goth" got perverted and became a household name. To the point where any kid wearing a Slipknot or Hot Topic emo screamo rock band was now "goth".
But to me what goth ISNT is fucking Mortal Kombat candy raver crap.

The goth culture music...no matter if it was light, dark, fast, super slow, ethereal, harsh, melodic, etc was
mysterious and always elicited a sense of wonder and took you places. Cyber-aggrotech-00ntz is just generic
Dance Dance Revolution music with bad distorted vocals.

A few months ago I got wind of some night, finally managed to find the place in San Francisco. Didnt even reach the top of the steps, and thick fog was rolling down with trippy lights/strobe effects and cryptic French noir manipulated film footage projected on the walls with ICX99 blaring being mixed into some slow trap and ethereal. It sure as heck wasnt a goth club, as that Balam Acab kid was about to take stage followed by oOoOO. And while witchhouse is pretty much mostly an indie hipster culture subset, with a lot of the people dressed like urban outfitters catalog kids...Im glad they at least have an appreciation for the music the goth culture SHOULD be embracing but find too scary or jarring.
Imagine a goth in 1992 saying Skinny Puppy was "too scary and unnerving". So for now, "goth clubs" will be VNV Nation, Combichrist and the "Pong" song played ad nauseum.

Btw, I notice the "first class"(2010 era) of 'witch house' bands have really flown the coup and seem to have evolved/distanced themselves. Grimes, oOoOO, Balam Acab, etc now appeal to an entirely new/different audience
and have reached a really bigger plateau. I know a lot of trendy business type people who love oOoOO. Grimes is just huge now, even playing on NBC's Jimmy Fallon recently. Even Ritualz, Funerals and Fostercare have changed their sound going in a more EBM/trance techhouse direction(just, in a really cool way)

I often describe witch house as ranging from trip hop influence, to southern trap hip hop meets early industrial experimentation with Alice Glass singing over it.
I DON'T want to see "witch house" and the overall dark indie scene get bogged down and caught up/stuck in the 2010
WH tropes. I think a lot of people new to it/influenced by it are grabbing for the original obvious cliches instead of giving themselves freedom to explore any and all genres. I myself am interested in middle eastern layers, some 80's new wave sounds and pre modern industrial.
Cursewords
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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I Can't speak for everyone but I do take witch house and my project seriously. As a producer there is a certain darkened mood and tone that I have to convey before I can be happy with a song. I love witch house but those who truely inspire me are bands like Burzum, wolves in the throne room, electric wizard, earth, and sunn. I draw inspiration from dj screw and electronic acts like Aphex Twin and Danger. I tag my songs witch house because that what it is. That is the sound I happen to make. If people don't take it seriously then ok. I don't mind at all. Seriously their loss because there are a lot of projects with a ton of great music to offer. It's not going anywhere and it's not dead. If anything witch house is just getting started. #witchhouse #gravewave#yodo
EVIGT
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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Witch House has changed a lot since 2010, but I wouldn't consider it dead -not at all. The "scene" got a lot bigger (labels and their merch etc.) plus it has become more commercial. In the beginning everyone did his own thing, there weren't any guidelines to be considered "witchy"(you can deny it or not but nowadays it seems like there are these unwritten rules you have to live up to), the alt-characters were still fun and new etc and you kinda knew all the artists that were involved, it was like a really small and close community and I think that a lot of people who have been following Witch House since the beginning feel like that "personal touch" is lost since the amount of new artists gained so fast.
But because it's so easy accessible it is a great opportunity for a lot of beginning or unknown "dark" artists. Even though it has lost the word "close" it still feels like a community to me (I realized this when the idea of the tribute to LOVEDIED came up), people are actually nice (at least most of the time), give criticism, help each other out etc. It's not like you are instantly hot or not(which is the case in most genres +other forms of art), you are you and you're just another human being doing the things you feel like you should be doing and I think that's great.

I think Witch House is not only about music, it's also about being broadminded.
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twinvessel
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EVIGT wrote:Witch House has changed a lot since 2010, but I wouldn't consider it dead -not at all. The "scene" got a lot bigger (labels and their merch etc.) plus it has become more commercial. In the beginning everyone did his own thing, there weren't any guidelines to be considered "witchy"(you can deny it or not but nowadays it seems like there are these unwritten rules you have to live up to), the alt-characters were still fun and new etc and you kinda knew all the artists that were involved, it was like a really small and close community and I think that a lot of people who have been following Witch House since the beginning feel like that "personal touch" is lost since the amount of new artists gained so fast.
But because it's so easy accessible it is a great opportunity for a lot of beginning or unknown "dark" artists. Even though it has lost the word "close" it still feels like a community to me (I realized this when the idea of the tribute to LOVEDIED came up), people are actually nice (at least most of the time), give criticism, help each other out etc. It's not like you are instantly hot or not(which is the case in most genres +other forms of art), you are you and you're just another human being doing the things you feel like you should be doing and I think that's great.

I think Witch House is not only about music, it's also about being broadminded.
It's been fun watching some of the 2010 acts get well known. Holy Other is now on a huge US/world tour with Amon Tobin's ISAM show. Tri-angle's Evian Christ is playing with witch house inspired Purity Ring. Grimes has just skyrocketed. I see a lot of WH influence reverberated *back* into trap hip hop, even bigger well known names.
(Deniror Farrar, and some Odd future tracks come to mind) I had been in the goth music underground for almost two decades but had not heard of "wh" or related artists til last summer. I guess like the 1976 punk movement in the UK, it moved really fast. Yet even as people from that original time period have burned out or moved into the early 90's rave vibe thing, a lot of people are just now discovering it all.
Ive definitely found warm, kindred helpful people within the witch house/dark indie/minimal wave/rossa corsa-new italio and dreampop world.
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Re: The Dismissal & Misunderstanding Of WH By People

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I'd say it's better to just roll your eyes behind your head and act like you're possessed when someone rolls their OWN eyes at witch house. Some people won't get it but there are plenty that do! :twisted:
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